Ihre Zukunft
Some days I am frightened for my future children.
I am frightened that a very charismatic homeschooled fundamentalist Christian will find his or her way into their lives and fill their minds with the wrong questions. These will be questions that masquerade as the right questions, the right ones being the questions that lead to more and better questions. Instead, their questions will have neat little answers to them. Tidy, closed answers that rule out any further inquiry. They will think that they have the universe figured out, that the Christian God is the final word on things. This bible, this book, this collection of short stories that has spread like a plague across the face of the earth, worked its way to be the #1 Bestseller of all time because no self-respecting churchgoer or road-side motel room can be without one, will hold all of these supposed answers between its very finite covers. In a very important way, however, these covers will contain something even more terrifying: The fear of not having an answer. The fear of being wrong.
It is a system of trial or error, and not one of investigation that I fear. If one holds an absolute belief so strongly, and so much of one's life has been spent stagnating in it, there will be immense fear of being wrong, of having wasted this time. Thus, to change one's mind would be to fail. The only way to succeed would be to hold firm to these beliefs, despite one's doubts. Rationalizations of such acts, such as "I'm being tested", "God works in mysterious ways", and other cop-outs will be used to maintain this illusion of success and failure in the maintenance of such a belief system. But why not investigate? Why is it that, to find the answers we seek from Christianity, we must already believe that what they tell us is true? If we only investigate
our existence, to question anything and everything in relation to everything else, there is no fear left. If we are constantly learning about the universe instead of finding different ways to rationalize what we already pretend to know about it, we will be better off. There is comfort there, and surety. We do not need an absolute knowledge of any god or of any religion to live a strong, safe and ultimately good life. This is what I want for my children.
I am frightened that a very charismatic homeschooled fundamentalist Christian will find his or her way into their lives and fill their minds with the wrong questions. These will be questions that masquerade as the right questions, the right ones being the questions that lead to more and better questions. Instead, their questions will have neat little answers to them. Tidy, closed answers that rule out any further inquiry. They will think that they have the universe figured out, that the Christian God is the final word on things. This bible, this book, this collection of short stories that has spread like a plague across the face of the earth, worked its way to be the #1 Bestseller of all time because no self-respecting churchgoer or road-side motel room can be without one, will hold all of these supposed answers between its very finite covers. In a very important way, however, these covers will contain something even more terrifying: The fear of not having an answer. The fear of being wrong.
It is a system of trial or error, and not one of investigation that I fear. If one holds an absolute belief so strongly, and so much of one's life has been spent stagnating in it, there will be immense fear of being wrong, of having wasted this time. Thus, to change one's mind would be to fail. The only way to succeed would be to hold firm to these beliefs, despite one's doubts. Rationalizations of such acts, such as "I'm being tested", "God works in mysterious ways", and other cop-outs will be used to maintain this illusion of success and failure in the maintenance of such a belief system. But why not investigate? Why is it that, to find the answers we seek from Christianity, we must already believe that what they tell us is true? If we only investigate
our existence, to question anything and everything in relation to everything else, there is no fear left. If we are constantly learning about the universe instead of finding different ways to rationalize what we already pretend to know about it, we will be better off. There is comfort there, and surety. We do not need an absolute knowledge of any god or of any religion to live a strong, safe and ultimately good life. This is what I want for my children.
Labels: Religion
posted by Ubersehen | 16:07
23 Comments:
I made a conscious choice to take that little book you fear and despise--the Bible--into my heart.
I should make something abundantly clear: I do not fear or despise the bible. Standing on its own, it presents no threat or challenge to me. What I fear is the cognitive process that can often go along with a fundamental belief in the bible. I fear it because I would like my children, like myself, to be able to grow up learning, as much as possible, only the facts regarding religious belief and the variety of spiritual paths available, not the opinions. As I said in this post, if they are to find answers in any religion, Christianity included, I would rather they did it before they decided to believe in all of the teachings.
On another point, I should be clear. I do not feel offended by you or superior to you. If I'm coming off as being pompous, well, that's a shame, I'm merely speaking my mind. Such are the limitations of prose in a web log setting.
One thing you forget, is that a true Christian experience is not that of being fed a bunch of dogma secured by threats of hellfire and damnation.
Believe me, I have never thought any differently. You seem pretty convinced of my stance regarding Christian thought, but I suspect that you have me pegged as something that I am not. You say that you are tired of seeing the same attitude over and over again... what attitude is that? Are you sure that I fit in with it exactly, or does it only seem that way because I have certain ideas about why Dani writes what/how she does?
I have always 'experimented' and tried things out, including various spiritual paths and philosphies. I don't just swallow something just because somebody tried to brainwash me.
I applaud you for making a researched choice for Christianity. Not everyone is so fortunate. It sounds to me as though you doubt that I have ever pursued any other philosophical paths. I have dabbled briefly with Christianity, as I'm sure most of North America has, looked into some pagan spiritual pursuits, as well as Buddhism. What I found in most of them is a lot of wonderful teachings that I was already well aware of from my upbringing. It occurred to me long before I knew what a humanist or an atheist was that I was quite content not knowing how the universe was run. I did not and do not fear that absence of knowledge, since I don't believe that any knowledge can be complete. Pursue it, certainly, but never believe that it is entirely achieved.
Many who follow a spiritual path do so because the religion comes packaged with positive life lessons and very beneficial teachings, as you have stated regarding the bible's apparent "wisdom of a parent". I am confident that the majority of those teachings (if not all) are also quite accessible outside of a religious framework. Therefor, the rationale of scriptural teachings does not work for me.
Some following a spiritual path cite, as you have, that they have had spiritual experiences that have helped strengthen their faith. Religions all over the world claim to have experienced them. From Whirling Dervishes in the middle-east, to meditating towards Nirvana in Nepal, to speaking in tongues in some charismatic divisions of Christianity, to spiritual possessions in Cuban drum ceremonies, they are quite widespread. Yet, there are natural explanations for them. And since one must, again, believe first in the appropriate spiritual path to achieve this experience of trance, how can the person experiencing them know whether or not they're actually spiritual or simply an unusual chemical reaction based on irregular breathing and other such factors? Without concrete answers, claims of religious/spiritual experiences providing evidence of the veracity of the associated religions/spiritual paths is not enough to compel me to belief in the hopes of experiencing it myself.
These are the kinds of questions I pose. Perhaps you have me pegged on the same tack as that fellow impersonating Richard Dawkins as far as my behaviour. I can't be sure as to how closely our beliefs match up, but I'd be interested to hear.
I also grow weary of Dani's blog. The reason things turn into a "slugfest" is because no one is actually discussing anything. There are no new points, and most are taking questions and criticisms as attacks for which they must attack in return. Neither side takes into account what is said. When someone points out a logical flaw in something Dani has said, she is likely to repeat her refuted claim, as though it were universally uncontested, within the month. By the same token, many who attempt to provide scriptural support for their points are also consistently repeating those after they have been sufficiently disputed. Is it perhaps this general behaviour that has led you to believe that I am "Sneering, condescending, [and] holier than thou"? My methods and belief have nothing to do with condescension or arrogance, merely with calling into question the issues I see as important and establishing the roots and reasons for an individuals beliefs and arguments.
Good points well made Ubersehen...
I've been lurking for a while - after following you back from Dani's Blog [where else... grin].
Fimally thought that I'd contribute something!
Uber – Definitely an interesting post, (especially compared to your last one). I really enjoyed reading it and found it thought provoking.
I am just curious - Which fundamental beliefs in the Bible do you fear or feel so threatened by?
- Do not lie?
- Do not cheat or steal?
- Do not murder the innocent?
- Do not commit adultery?
- Love your neighbor as yourself?
- Love the Lord your God?
I sincerely want to know what you find so bad and offensive about the Bible's teachings?
P.S. What does the title say in English?
MQM,
I totally believe that spiritual experiences have a biochemical component but for me there is a spiritual intelligence behind them that I can't just write off as a chemical reaction.
My question here isn't so much whether you believe the experience is spiritual as whether you've considered and/or acknowledged the possibility that it might be an entirely natural phenomenon.
what if the boundaries of that lifesyle protect them from the dangers of illicit drug use, sexual promiscuity leading to pregancy, or worse, an STD or aids.
What if they do? Should a good parent not protect them from the dangers of all of the above anyway? And what is it about the Charismatic lifestyle that protects children from poor life choices? Unless there is something inherent in the religious belief component of a spiritual lifestyle that reduces the risk of these things, and that cannot be produced through any other means, I see no reason to rely on it as a means of safely raising children.
Regardless, illicit drug use, sexual promiscuity leading to pregancy, STDs and AIDS all occur in Charismatic communities as well, so one is not guaranteed to be safe from it given such a choice.
Further, the patriarchal focus of fundamentalist religion is not something that promotes equal rights for women (of particular concern if my child is female).
I have stated before that much of what is taught in the bible and in other holy scriptures can just as easily be explained in terms of social history, consensus and common sense. Given this, it is not necessarily religion that children from impoverished backgrounds or histories of poor choices need, but simply the means through which to make better choices. These opportunities exist outside of religious institutions every bit as readily as inside them.
In essence, if other systems can help prevent illicit drug use, sexual promiscuity leading to pregancy, STDs and AIDS, then the religious aspect of a Charismatic lifestyle is entirely superfluous. I'd rather my children subscribed to that philosophy based on its religious merits, not based on social benefits that can be obtained there only by conversion, and can be obtained elsewhere without those strings attached.
And this is again where my concern lies... there are so many extraneous reasons being presented for following the fundamentalist lifestyle that I worry the children I have in the future might be be clouded by irrelevant reasoning in such a way that they'll follow a particular way of life without knowing what the right questions are to ask.
Naturally, I will do everything in my power to ensure that they are asking the right questions from the beginning.
Maybe Dani's church offers her that security, and at some point she will soften her approach as she develops spiritually.
It's a nice thought, but given the tack that Enyart and Dani's husband Curtis (aka Blunttruth) take, it's unlikely that she'll have the chance.
I am just curious - Which fundamental beliefs in the Bible do you fear or feel so threatened by?
You misunderstood me. I already stated that I am not threatened by the teachings of the bible. I am concerned for my children in regards to certain fundamental beliefs of fundamentalists. There is a significant difference. I've already mentioned which practices and beliefs concerned me in the original post and ensuing comments.
- Do not lie?
- Do not cheat or steal?
- Do not murder the innocent?
- Do not commit adultery?
- Love your neighbor as yourself?
- Love the Lord your God?
To address your predictable list, I've already stated that such moral standards can be explained in terms of social history, consensus and common sense. Thus, simply because the bible also contains them, does not necessarily mean that they stem from the bible.
And the title is German. It translates as "Their future".
Oh, and hello Cyberkitten. Feel free to add your two cents to any of my posts or to continue lurking as you see fit.
Ubersehen said: Oh, and hello Cyberkitten. Feel free to add your two cents to any of my posts or to continue lurking as you see fit.
Thanks. I'll just sit back & watch ATM...
You're doing very well in this debate ATM IMO. I couldn't put it better myself. Keep up the good work.
For me that precious and essential thing is my relationship with God.
It seems to me that love between any two individuals really is the result of a series of chemical processes, etc, and you're quite correct in declaring such an explanation to be decidedly unromantic. As I see it, we, as humans, have always experienced the effects of these processes moreso than experiencing the processes themselves. The combination of whichever chemicals and valves are responsible for bringing about feelings involved in intimate relationships all result in the end feelings... which ARE romantic. It's kind of like watching your own sausage being made... while the end product may be gooey and delicious, with excellent presentation, the series of steps it goes through to get to your plate is not one for the faint of stomach.
In regards to your point regarding ways of life, I understand the point you were trying to make, and in some cases I might be inclined to agree. Overall, however, I take the utilitarian standpoint and feel that children in dire situations should be able to get the help they need without any strings attached -- spiritual or otherwise.
My thoughts exactly, Phronk.
I suspect (and correct me if I'm wrong) that MQM has difficulty reconciling a physical experience that feels very convincingly supernatural, or at the very least holy, with an explanation that is not.
In any case, MQM, I'm curious about what you meant when you said that you don't tend to make black and white distinctions between the natural and the supernatural. What grey areas do you feel lie between them?
Right, but my question for this issue is: How do you know it's being manifested?
Also, if a surgeon can poke a patient's brain and make them smell toast that isn't there, is it possible that other stimuli can cause an individual to experience something spiritual that isn't really happening?
It's really a question of human fallibility... I don't know that it's possible to discern 100%, especially in cases like the one you're describing, whether the experience is truly spiritual. As convincing as it felt, it could still be an illusion.
Phronk....Gittin' a li'l "long-winded" might be the appropriate thing tado whenya find rational discussion azya have over here on Uber's blog..
Maybeya needed a breath of fresh air...
Kudos, Uber...a cat could learn sumpthin' here...
Cats are always associated with lesbians. The typical stereotype that all lesbians have ten cats or more… *sigh*
I have to say what a thought provoking post---and what a thought provoking civilized comment section. (Until Stevo and I got here!)
I hope you don’t mind me adding my two cents in your comment section, so you can delete at any time. From my experience, and through my faith, I do call myself a “Christian”. I follow Christ, I believe in Christ, and I believe He saves all of us. I mostly follow what the New Testament teaches---mostly the book of John and so forth. I read about Jesus and go from there. Much of the bible ‘in my opinion’ are dictations from the past of immoral acts of promiscuity—ie: orgies and homosexuality. I truly believe that the origin of homosexuality stemmed from orgies back in the Roman days. It said nothing about ‘love’ between two people of the same gender which is different ‘to me’.
Spiritual experiences. I’ve had them. You can call it a psychotic moment, you can call it someone poking my brain or burning toast—but for me—that was the proof that God accepted me. If I sit and meditate, I can hear God speak to me. I can’t hear Him audibly, it’s more of a calling of the heart. This is why my beliefs are so firm when Dani and I discuss issues of Christianity. My dialog is between Jesus and me---not some God of another religion. I’ve had many encounters of spiritual experiences that has absolutely amazed me, and I know, science will always debate that; but keep in mind that science will always go against the grain of spirituality. God is not of this earth; science is. Science is worldy—which God is not.
Intelligent and radical Christians can throw every scripture written in the good book at me—but I will always stick to my beliefs; the beliefs in my heart that my relationship with God is the most important thing… And that God accepts me, and my partner. The relationship that I have with my partner is much like a relationship between a man and a woman who are married. We do not participate in promiscuous activities with other people—we are monogamous. The only difference is, we cannot legally get married. That doesn’t matter to us though, because we have that unconditional love that binds us---as well as the unconditional love that God continues to give to us.
I firmly believe that people should let their children learn from other sources on their own. I was brought up in a Catholic household and decided for myself that I wanted to be Christian. I don’t want to go Episcopalian or Unitarian, due to their “acceptance” in their church for gay and lesbians. I don’t care about that. I care about God.
Your post hit me because I agree with learning more—finding what else is out there other than what radical Christians want to brainwash you with. (I’m talking the extreme radicals.) I love sharing about religion and faiths, but when it gets to the point of deliberately bashing another Christian over something they disagree with, it becomes more of a holy war instead of a Christian “brother or sister” trying to help.
Accept Christians who are weak in faith, and don’t argue with them about what they think is right or wrong. For instance, one person believes it is all right to eat anything. But another believer who has a sensitive conscience will eat only vegetables. Those who think it is all right to eat anything must not look down on those who won’t. And those who won’t eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God ha accepted them. Who are you to condemn God’s servants? They are responsible to the Lord, so let him tell them whether they are right or wrong. The Lord’s power will help them do as they should. ~Romans 141-4
Nice forum you created. Thanks for the great read!
“…How can you rationally study stuff like intuition and 'gut level' instincts?”
Ooooh that’s a good point! I feel that it’s a personal thing. To me, I believe that God has a purpose for everybody on this earth. Our intuition and gut instincts are relied upon trust in one’s character. The level of love and kindness you have in your heart measures how much you will put all of that out there; which in the end result, will be given back to you.
For what’s right and for what’s wrong as far as going by gut instincts? I do believe God speaks to us on many levels and in different ways---and different messages for different people. …Why? Because He has a purpose for all of us. (IMO) I think it’s important to look at the character of the person instead of the flaws and sins that they have within them.
Rationally studying concepts like intuition and ‘gut level’ is on a psychology aspect—(some would say.)
Steve-O,
Thanks for the compliment.
Kissing smokers isn't typically an issue for me. I'm quite happily involved in a relationship with a nice, non-smoking gal who kisses very well. It's only when the neighbour decides to try and jump me that I have the opportunity to evaluate.
Deb,
I truly believe that the origin of homosexuality stemmed from orgies back in the Roman days.
I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that you believe that homosexuality started with the Romans? If so, how do you know? And what of all the other cultures and species not affected by the Romans that exhibit homosexual behaviour? If not, can you explain what you mean?
You can call it a psychotic moment, you can call it someone poking my brain or burning toast—but for me—that was the proof that God accepted me.
But how do you really know? If no one else but you experienced this feeling, how can you be certain that it isn't merely a product of your own bio-chemistry?
If I sit and meditate, I can hear God speak to me. I can’t hear Him audibly, it’s more of a calling of the heart.
This makes me even more confused. If he doesn't speak in words, and only in feelings, how do you know, as one, in a world of fallible human beings, that this is the call of your god? Does it simply feel really convincing, or is there something about it beyond actual feeling that makes it so incontrovertible to you?
Your post hit me because I agree with learning more—finding what else is out there other than what radical Christians want to brainwash you with.
Kudos for desiring to branch out, but why limit yourself to just Christianity? Who's to say whether or not all answers can be derived from our concept of the Christian god?
Just to make sure this stays friendly, I trust you'll take these as honest questions, not as an attack. I'm merely curious as to your reasoning in these regards.
Phronk,
I'd be interested to hear more on your studies regarding human intuition. Feel free to post anything long-winded here for us to peruse.
Interesting stuff you guys...
...and CIVIL too.... Respect!
I used to be a Christian, a pretty hardcore one at that (not militant like Dani, my faith was too strong for that), but ultimately it was my study of the religion that did it in for me. Sometime in my 6th year of missionary work, the inconsistencies just seemed to add up and I was having trouble explaining them all away like I used to be able to do. I think I realized that the stuff I really liked about Christianity were things that I could incorporate into my life just as easily outside of the context of religion, so I moved on.
Even as a Christian though, I never found the folks like Dani and those you discuss in your post to be very palatable. I always (and continue) to find militant christians (and militant members of other religions) to seem to be lacking in faith. My view was always that the best way to win over hearts and minds was to show what a great thing being a chrisitian was, instead of trying to show how awful everyone who wasn't a christian was. I figured if I had enough faith that what I had was important, special, and beneficial, then people would want it and the rest would fall into place. I always look at christians like Dani and those you describe in your posts who are so unsure that what they have is a good thing, that they don't think people will want to follow it unless they are forcibly made to. I view it as an extreme lack of faith.
Per the intuition discussion, I've not researched it as much a Phronk, but I've always looked at it this way. We know that your brain processes FAR more information than your concious mind does. Experiments have been done showing that the brain can recognize and identify patterns without the concious mind even being aware of it. It's always seemed probable to me that the "gut feeling" may just be your brain trying to let you know that it sees a route that your mind hasn't been able to figure out.
Here's an innocent question ferya...Ever sinceda World began, haven't there always been mushrooms?...jus aksin'...
Ah, just cruised back here and I definitely wanted to take a minute or two to respond. Thanks for replying.
When I said that homosexuality—the term (in my beliefs) stemmed from the Roman days where it was a sin to be promiscuous. (Still is) but I am talking about the label itself. I don’t believe they were referring to same gender sexes loving one another. I feel and believe it was pure lust that they were referring to.
As far as believing that I have seen and heard from God and not thinking it was a psychotic moment…it all boils down to ‘faith’. See, I can’t convince you that it’s true, because who knows, it may very well be a psychotic moment (given my medication doesn’t run out) … but ‘for me’, it works. I feel it, and I believe it.
Your question regarding my ‘conversations with God’ so to speak, or lack there of, is simply feeling His presence. For example, I could be praying, and asking God for a specific answer…then I pick up the bible and out of nowhere---the FIRST page I flip to has the exact answer that I needed to hear. Or I will see it through an article, hear it through what someone said to me, or even television. God speaks to people in so many ways----in my beliefs. The key is ‘being aware’ of the signs and really going on blind faith. A lot of people need to feel, touch, see and hear for themselves for it to be true. That’s totally understandable.
I have looked into other religions and I still learn about other faiths. There is nothing wrong with understanding what other people believe in. I just simply feel that my heart belongs to Christ. So, with that, I have never been persuaded, but I have learned a whole lot from other religions. A lot of positive messages in Buddhism, Unitarianism and mid-eastern religions as well. So I don’t “limit” myself per se, cause I do try to learn other concepts and what others believe, but none has ever changed my mind.
Thanks for taking an interest in my opinion!
Myquestioning: I'm confused. Were you referring to me as though I didn't make a lifelong committment to my partner? We have been together for 12 yrs and we are going very strong...in a loving relationship which we also include God---because we have a personal relationship with him.
The only reason why we cannot get married is due to legal matters. Other than that, we are very much committed to one another. I hope that I didn't confuse you with someone who runs around "dating"...cause I'm not like that.
Just wanted to clear that up. :)
Phronk said: So while we may not agree on some factual statements about the universe, at least we can relate on moral issues, which, one could argue, are much more important in everyday human life.
Indeed. Well said.
Your blog is a pleasure to read no matter what the subject as you express yourself well...however I have to disagree with MQM, I enjoyed your introspection over matters sexual and the temptations that arise.
That said, this is definitely a wonderfully civilized discussion. A pleasure to read.
Deb
The dating vs. marriage thing was in reference to making a committment to Jesus vs. just 'shopping around' various religions and philosophies.
Dolphin
Good point about Christian insecurity and forcing one's beliefs on others. It takes more faith to take the softer approach and let God work on the person than it does to hammer someone over the head.
While I'm bummed you left Christianity it was an honest decision. I'm against faking anything.
Phronk
The Artist's Way taught me to trust my intuition - all sorts of cool things happened creatively that my rational mind couldn't forsee or comprehend. So maybe there is a creative intelligence that works beyond the conscious level. The book is basically about helping people 'unblock' creatively by suspending their more left brained rational faculties and allowing the right brained side more leeway.
Now as a creative person, I appreciate my left brain because it helps me to stay organized and to deal with administrative practicalities. But there comes a time where one encounters creative impulses which the left brain seeks to squander because it doesn't 'make sense' and not taking those creative risks can definitely hamper the creative process.
The left brain seems to fear the unknown. But think of all the people who thought the world was flat. Their left brains could not comprehend any paradigm - even if it was scientifically dead wrong.
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